The next three bosses in Tier 5 raids are Therian forms of Tornadus (Jan 10-17), Thundurus (Jan 17-24) and Landorus (Jan 24-31). For the first time, they will be given their signature moves: Bleakwind Storm, Wildbolt Storm, and Sandsear Storm respectively.
Any Therian forms caught from these raids (in 2024) will know them, and you will also be able to teach these moves to an older one using an Elite Charged TM. The Incarnate forms do not have the signature moves yet, but they are likely to come in a future raid rotation.
This article will examine how these three Forces of Nature (in both Therian and Incarnate forms) perform as raid attackers.
Main Points
Landorus Therian sees the most significant impact of the three. Sandsear Storm makes it the #1 non-shadow non-mega Ground attacker, slightly edging out Groudon. It’s generally comparable to most shadows, but worse than top-tier shadows like Shadow Excadrill and Shadow Garchomp with legacy Earth Power (and future Shadow Groudon).
- Landorus-T has very unique type advantages, which can make it a good companion with other top ground attackers to cover one another’s weaknesses (especially fighting).
- Landorus-T also remains relatively competitive with attackers of other types. The main things above it are top shadows, Fusion Flare Reshiram and Terrakion.
Thundurus Therian get a very small, almost inconsequential upgrade that doesn’t change its relative positions. It stays below Xurkitree and all top-tier electric shadows. The comparison with Zekrom gets a bit interesting, but Fusion Bolt Zekrom still appears better on average due to typing (and bulk).
Tornadus Therian (the form in raids right now), despite seeing a huge improvement in itself, is the least notable. Not only is it slightly worse than its future Incarnate form unlike the other two genies, but its closest comparisons are to regular non-legendaries, like the newly upgraded Staraptor and Braviary with Fly. It’s very viable, but many other options are either better or cheaper.
My analyses of other types are in this spreadsheet. You can also follow me on Twitter (X) and Threads!
Charts
Details on pairwise comparisons: Landorus
Overall, a theme that emerges from below is that Landorus-T serves well as a “companion” to other ground attackers due to its unique typing. It’s the only top-tier ground attacker that resists fighting (while many are weak to it) and ground, and one of the few that takes neutral from grass. This means a mixed team with Landorus-T and many other attackers can improve consistency. However, if you can only choose one, Landorus-T does have lower raw power than Shadow Excadrill and Shadow Garchomp with Earth Power.
- [vs. Groudon] Landorus has higher power. Groudon’s bulk advantage usually doesn’t help that much, but interestingly, there’s a small chance (~5%) where it does much better than Landorus because of it, when facing an attack-heavy boss with a big charged move. Still, this comparison doesn’t seem as extreme of a “glass cannon vs. tank” case as you may think, and is generally in favor of Landorus.
- Examples of the above: Overheat Blacephalon, Reshiram and Zekrom with multiple moves, and curiously, Draco Meteor Shadow Dialga (but not regular Dialga).
- Landorus’s flying type gives it a small number of unique advantages (Earth Power Heatran, Earthquake Terrakion), but it’s generally rare.
- [vs. Shadow Excadrill] Landorus is usually worse, and can only hope to “beat” Shadow Excadrill through typing advantages. This actually happens somewhat often, with fighting and ground moves from the boss, but still only accounts for ~20% of all scenarios.
- My earlier point about companionship probably applies to Shadow Excadrill better than all others, as they cover the weaknesses of each other very well.
- [vs. Shadow Garchomp] Typing differences seem minimal (Dialga/Reshiram/Zekrom), so it’s mostly a question of raw power, where Landorus-T is worse than Shadow Garchomp with Earth Power but similar to Earthquake.
- [vs. Shadow Mamoswine] As I’ve explained before, Shadow Mamoswine has terrible typing as a ground attacker, even though it’s stronger than Landorus-T on paper. Its consistency is why Landorus appeared higher on the line chart.
- [vs. Shadow Rhyperior] Their powers are similar, but typing is Landorus’s main advantage that pushes it over Shadow Rhyperior. In addition to the issue with fighting as mentioned earlier, Rhyperior is also very weak to water and grass, which Landorus handles well – especially the latter. This makes Landorus more consistent.
Landorus-T compared to attackers of other types
Out of the (surprisingly many) raid bosses where ground is the only usable type, ground types historically have lower power than other types you can use. So let’s compare Landorus-T to these other types and see if it shakes things up.
| Attacking type | Most similar to | Worse than | Better than |
|---|---|---|---|
| Fighting | Shadow Hariyama | Terrakion, Sh-Machamp | Lucario, Conkeldurr |
| Fire | Overheat Reshiram, Sh-Blaziken | Fusion Flare Reshiram, Sh-Chandelure, Sh-legends | MM Heatran, Darmanitan/Chandelure |
| Water | Origin Pulse Kyogre | Sh-Swampert | Surf Kyogre, Greninja |
| Rock | Rampardos, Rhyperior | Sh-Rampardos, Sh-Rhyperior, Sh-Tyranitar | Tyrantrum, Terrakion |
(The choice of these specific types was explained in the Primal Groudon analysis.)
Take it as you wish, but a high-level conclusion seems to be that while Landorus-T is still generally worse than top-tier shadows, it is otherwise only strictly outclassed by the top legendaries (Terrakion, FF Reshiram) among non-shadow non-megas.
Details on pairwise comparisons: Thundurus and Tornadus
Thundurus-T:
- Typing doesn’t seem to be nearly as big of an issue here. The exceptions, if any, are Shadow Electivire and Magnezone, especially the latter.
- Thundurus is simply weaker than most shadows and Xurkitree. Thus, its slight typing advantage over the shadow non-legendaries is not enough to help it on average.
- [vs. Zekrom] In terms of raw power, their signature move versions seem like a wash, with Thundurus having higher DPS (and Thundurus also seems marginally stronger than Wild Charge Zekrom). The main advantage of Fusion Bolt Zekrom is its better typing – resistance of elemental moves, especially water when serving as an electric attacker – combined with better bulk. This allows FB Zekrom to show up above Thundurus-T on average.
- Wild Charge Zekrom, on the other hand, lowers the raw power just enough to resemble a more classic DPS-bulk tradeoff that’s not significantly in favor of either (unless you dodge or in large lobbies).
Tornadus: (Can I just say I did it for the sake of completeness?)
- Unlike the other two genies, Tornadus’s Incarnate form has stats that are better suited for raiding, i.e., higher attack. The Therian form has more bulk and a better fast move (Gust, vs. Incarnate’s Air Slash), but lower attack. As seen here, the better move is insufficient to offset the stats difference in this case – even though the difference is very small.
- As for comparisons to Staraptor and Braviary, the main advantage of Tornadus is that it resists fighting attacks instead of dealing neutral damage. Otherwise, their performances are similar, maybe a little bit lower or higher depending on what you’re comparing to and the situations.
Imgur Links and Additional Charts
General attacker charts: ASE and ASTTW*
Comparisons:
* indicates additional charts that are not in the main post.
Hi Teban54, please let me correct your assumptions regarding Ground attackers, especially Shadow Mamoswine vs. Landorus.
For Ground, you actually never need a team of 5–6 trainers. Ground is viable only against Heatran, Nihilego, and Electric bosses. Heatran and Nihilego can be soloed using Primal Groudon only (so you don’t need anything else), while by 2 trainers, almost all relevant counters are viable. Against Electric, Mamoswine is better than Landorus due to its typing.
Of course, there are a lot of Steel, Rock, and Fire bosses (let’s forget Poison), but aside from sunny weather, you’d prefer Fighting, Steel, and Rock counters instead of Ground. And again, to use Primal Groudon only can be the best approach in all raids.
As a solo player, I needed a top-tier Ground squad last year maybe only once: against Shadow Electabuzz. Without weather boost, there are two possible tactics to beat it in 180s: Primal only with 2 relobbyings, or Primal + something else (Shadow Mamoswine in my case) with 1 relobbying. I didn’t try to solo Mega Ampharos in Sunny, though, but I assume that tactic can be similar.
But I want to assure you, that your analysis is incredibly helpful, especially in the following three aspects:
1. How counters look relative to each other in general.
2. How much is performance gain when powering up (till 40-45-50 levels).
3. Is a Pokémon A at L50 better than a Pokémon B at L40.
Thank you a lot!